Preamble

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Oral Answers to Questions — DISTRIBUTIVE TRADES (EMPLOYMENT).

Mr. Rhys Davies: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour the number of insured males and females, respectively, employed in the distributive trades at the beginning of September, 1939, and at the last available date?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Assheton): These figures are only available for the month of July in each year, and I regret, therefore, that the available statistics are not sufficient to enable comparative figures for the dates specified in my hon. Friend's Question to be given.

Oral Answers to Questions — MILITARY SERVICE.

CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS.

Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour whether, when conscientious objectors' tribunals register men on condition that they do agricultural work, a check is kept to ascertain whether such men apply for farm work; and whether any farmer is willing to take them?

Mr. Assheton: The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. As regards the second part, some farmers have been willing to engage these men, but there are a number who have not been able to obtain agricultural work. County war agricultural executive committees are being asked to assist local officers of the Ministry of Labour as far as possible in finding suitable employment for them.

Sir A. Knox: What is done in the case of a conscientious objector who is told to find work and cannot find it? Does he become a Cabinet Minister?

Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte: Will my hon. Friend make it compulsory for all conscientious objectors to wear a white armband, with the letters "C.O." in yellow?

CALLING-UP.

Captain Vyvyan Adams: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour whether, in view of the vital necessity of increasing our available manpower, he will arrange for the immediate calling up of more age groups, as, however deficient equipment may be, the training the men would receive would be of the greatest value?

Mr. Assheton: Two age groups are being registered this month, and arrangements are being made to register four further age groups in July. Additional age groups will be registered as rapidly as is necessary to meet the requirements of the Forces.

Captain Adams: Would my hon. Friend remember that it is not necessary to have full equipment in order to train men?

Mr. Assheton: That is a matter for the Secretary of State for War.

Captain Adams: But will my hon. Friend convey this important point to his right hon. Friend?

CHOICE OF SERVICE.

Mr. Ralph Etherton: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour what consideration is given to any preference which a man may indicate for a particular service when called up under the National Service (Armed Forces) Act, 1939; in the event of a man being called up inadvertently or otherwise for the Army when his preference is for the Navy, what provisions exist for the man to obtain a transfer; whether he is aware that the Army authorities refuse to transfer the men in such circumstances; and whether he will investigate the position, and, if necessary, introduce legislation or make regulations to prevent such anomalies and hardship?

Mr. Assheton: All cases of men who express a preference for the Navy or Air Force are considered by officers of those Services in order to decide which of the men can be accepted. The number expressing preferences for the Navy and the Air Force is always greater than the num-


ber required by those Services: it is, therefore, inevitable that many are disappointed. If my hon. Friend knows of any case in which a man who has been accepted for the Navy or Air Force has been called up for the Army, I shall be glad to have particulars.

Mr. Etherton: I could draw particular cases to my hon. Friend's attention. Could he say why last Saturday, for the first time, men registering were not asked to express a preference?

Mr. Assheton: There are notices indicating that preference is available for those who require it.

Mr. Etherton: Was not the practice changed last Saturday for the first time?

Mr. Assheton: I should like notice of that question.

Mr. Denville: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that offices were closed at mid-day and that applicants were told to come back on Monday?

Mr. Assheton: I cannot accept that.

Mr. Denville: Does the hon. Gentleman not know that there is a war on?

Oral Answers to Questions — UNEMPLOYMENT (WEST HAM).

Mr. Thorne: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour the total number of unemployed on the live register in the borough of West Ham for the week ended 8th June; and the total number of juveniles on the live register for the same week?

Mr. Assheton: I am having the latest available figures extracted and will forward them to my hon. Friend in due course.

Oral Answers to Questions — FACTORIES (ANNUAL REPORT).

Mr. Rhys Davies: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour when the Annual Report for 1939 of the Chief Inspector of Factories will be issued?

Mr. Assheton: This report is in preparation, but in present circumstances I am unable to indicate the probable date of issue.

Mr. Davies: Would my hon. Friend see that there is a speeding-up of the publication of this document?

Mr. Assheton: I have no reason to think it will be unduly delayed.

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL WAR EFFORT.

WEEK-END WORK (PAYMENT).

Mr. Mander: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour the usual practice adopted by companies engaged on war work as to the rate of payment for their office staff when kept working on Saturday afternoons and Sundays; and what is the policy which the Government are recommending should be pursued?

Mr. Assheton: It is the view of the Government that questions as to the payments to be made to workpeople in respect of week-end working should be settled in accordance with any provisions in agreements relating to this matter. Where no such agreements exist the matter appears to be one for settlement between managements and representatives of the employés concerned.

Mr. Mander: Is the Minister aware that in a great many cases there are no agreements and that this is a new problem, and will the Government give some guidance to firms all over the country who really want to know what they ought to do?

Mr. Assheton: In the Government's view it is best to leave managements and employés to settle these matters between themselves.

Mr. Mander: What are the Government doing in their own factories?

Sir Robert Young: Would it not be advisable for the Government to suggest a remedy themselves?

GAMING AND BETTING.

Mr. C. Wilson: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that on the outbreak of war our French Allies prohibited all casino gambling, and whether he will prohibit all gambling in this country?

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir John Anderson): Gaming houses are already illegal in this country, and whatever may be the arguments for amending the law on the subject of gaming and betting, I know of no justification for taking this matter up at the present time.

GREYHOUND RACE MEETINGS.

Mr. Wilson: asked the Home Secretary whether, and to what extent, the 30 race meetings per week at the 15 dog-racing tracks in the London area are being reduced owing to his action; and the number of meetings and races which will now take place weekly before midday, between midday and 5 p.m., and after 5 p.m., respectively?

Sir J. Anderson: The present arrangement in regard to greyhound racing is that, in order not to interfere with working hours, meetings are only held in the evenings and in the afternoons on Saturdays and days which are local half-holidays. I am now, however, arranging that there shall also be a substantial reduction in the number of meetings.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: Has the right hon. Gentleman noticed that some daily papers feel so strongly on this matter that they are now ceasing to publish greyhound racing results?

NATIONAL ORGANISATION.

Mr. E. Smith: asked the Prime Minister whether he will move to appoint a committee and ask that they shall report as expeditiously as possible on how best to organise the whole nation with a view to obtaining the efficiency and results now being obtained from some sections of industry, and that they shall also report on how Parliamentary procedure can be adapted to suit the present needs of the nation?

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): No, Sir. I do not consider that the appointment of such a committee is practicable.

GARAGE WORKERS.

Sir Granville Gibson: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour whether, in view of the doubts caused by the appeal by the Minister of Aircraft Production for garage hands to transfer to the aircraft industry, and the statement by the Commander-in-Chief of the Home Forces that the utmost services of the motor industry's repair shops and garages would be required immediately in the event of hostilities within Great Britain, he will give some guidance to the employés in motor repair shops and garages, who are anxious to serve the country fully, as to whether they should remain at their work or register for undertaking munition work?

Mr. Assheton: The duty of these workers and of all others who wish to transfer to what they consider to be more urgent war work is to report at any Employment Exchange their willingness to transfer, together with particulars of their qualifications, and then to remain in their present jobs until asked by the Exchange to take up other employment. It is only in this way that the needs of urgent munitions work can be met without unduly impairing other services, including the road transport services, in which adequate personnel must be maintained as part of our combined war effort.

Sir G. Gibson: It was very difficult to hear the answer, but I think I caught the sense of it. I should like to know whether any public announcement has been made, so that the employés of motoring organisations throughout the country will know where their services are required, because at the moment they do not know?

Mr. Assheton: I am sorry if my hon. Friend could not hear my answer. It seems difficult to-day to make oneself heard. I hope that the answer given will convey to garage workers the information which the hon. Member wants them to have.

Oral Answers to Questions — INDIA (WAR EFFORT).

Sir Walter Smiles: asked the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that many people in India are gravely concerned at the lack of war effort on the part of the Government of India; and whether he is able to make any statement on the subject?

The Secretary of State for India (Mr. Amery): I am aware of the criticisms that have been made; but I can assure my hon. Friend that the Government of India are no less anxious than I am to develop India's war capacity to the full. May I first refer to the statement broadcast by the Commander-in-Chief in India on 31st May, in which he gave details of the measures being taken by the Government of India to raise and equip forces to India's maximum capacity, and also to expand her industrial and productive output to provide war materials and necessaries for use both in India and overseas. I am sending a copy to the Library. It must be remembered that in India, as elsewhere, the development of resources


in man-power is conditioned by the supply of equipment. With a view to making the best use of those resources, the Government of India and I are exploring every method of expediting the supply both of equipment and of the means of producing it, and are pressing forward with our efforts to the utmost extent that is possible without hindering the supply of essential equipment required for immediate use elsewhere in the present emergency.

Commander Locker-Lampson: Is the Minister aware that his last speech has had a very good effect already?

Oral Answers to Questions — CIVIL DEFENCE.

ENEMY ALIENS.

Mr. Frankel: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that cases have occurred where the curfew regulation applicable to enemy aliens has been broken to enable certain enemy aliens to fulfil broadcasting engagements with the British Broadcasting Corporation; and whether this was done with his knowledge and authority?

Sir J. Anderson: The order to which my hon. Friend refers expressly provides for the granting of exemptions, and there is no breach of the order if the police are satisfied that for the purpose of enabling an alien to earn his livelihood some relaxation of the restrictions can properly be granted.

DEPUTY REGIONAL COMMISSIONER, SOUTHERN REGION.

Sir A. Knox: asked the Home Secretary what are the reasons for the appointment of the hon. Member for Bristol, North (Mr. Bernays) as Deputy Regional Commissioner for Civil Defence in the Southern Region?

Sir J. Anderson: My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North (Mr. Bernays) was appointed Deputy Regional Commissioner for the Southern Civil Defence Region in succession to Mr. William Goodenough, who found it necessary to relinquish his appointment on account of his other commitments.

Sir A. Knox: Is the right hon. Gentleman sure there is no local gentleman with local connections and greater knowledge available for this appointment?

Sir J. Anderson: We take the best advice in a matter of this kind, and I do my best to give weight to all relevant considerations.

REFUGEES.

Mr. Riley: asked the Home Secretary the approximate number of refugees from Nazi persecution in Great Britain who have been classed in category C, and why some of the refugees in this category have been interned; what are the reasons for interning some of these category C refugees and not others; and whether such interned refugees will be entitled to have their cases re-examined?

Sir J. Anderson: Approximately 52,000 Germans and Austrians were classified as refugees and placed in Category C. On 11th May I ordered the internment, as a measure of military precaution, of all male Germans and Austrians in a coastal zone on the east and south-east coasts and Category C males in that zone were interned in pursuance of this general direction. In addition, I have authorised chief constables to arrest for internment any German or Austrian in Category C about whose reliability the chief constable feels doubt from the point of view of national security. As my hon. Friend will appreciate, in present circumstances any general review is out of the question, but this point will be kept in mind for consideration when circumstances permit.

Major Sir Philip Colfox: Would it not be much better to intern all foreigners?

Mr. Riley: Is it not the case that many of these refugees are being interned without any reason given?

Sir J. Anderson: That is perfectly true, and when it is represented to me that as a matter of military necessity action should be taken, my desire must be in the present circumstances to take that action unless there are overwhelming arguments to the contrary. With regard to the Question of the hon. and gallant Member, I have been going on the principle of doing first things first. If we try to do everything all at once, there is a danger of leaving undone those things which ought to be done.

Sir Ralph Glyn: Does the answer of the right hon. Gentleman mean that in every case where a chief constable has requested that action should be taken in


any one of these 32,000 cases, permission has been given to the chief constable to act?

Sir J. Anderson: That is really a different question. The answer to it is that chief constables have discretion to take into custody enemy aliens in regard to whom they may feel some doubt.

Mr. J. J. Davidson: Has the right hon. Gentleman a list of the things to be done first and then of the things to be done after the things to be done first have been done?

"ALARM AND DESPONDENCY."

Mr. Henderson Stewart: asked the Home Secretary whether, with regard to Emergency Powers Order 938, he will state the interpretation to be placed by his officials on the words "alarm and despondency"; and whether he is satisfied that it is in the public interest that the institution of proceedings under this Order should be left in the hands of any police officer above the rank of constable?

Sir J. Anderson: My hon. Friend is under a misapprehension. The effect of paragraph (3) of the Regulation, as read with Regulation 93 (1), is that no prosecution in respect of an offence against the Regulation can be instituted except by, or with the consent of, the Director of Public Prosecutions. It will be for the court to decide whether a particular statement or report comes within the terms of the Regulation, and I do not think a court will find difficulty in determining this question.

Mr. Stewart: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many of us have the greatest difficulty in understanding what the words mean? Will he give us some indication of what he thinks they mean?

Sir J. Anderson: I do not think that would be at all difficult.

EIRE AND NORTHERN IRELAND.

Sir Hugh O'Neill: asked the Home Secretary what regulations are at present in force to check and control the entry into Northern Ireland of persons coming from Eire?

Sir J. Anderson: I have been in consultation with the Government of Northern Ireland, and in view of the difficulties of

controlling entry over the land border, they have decided to supplement the existing powers of the police for dealing with undesirable entrants by an Order requiring all persons in Northern Ireland to be in possession of an identity document which must be produced to the police on demand.

Sir H. O'Neill: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the imposition of restrictions and conditions on the entry of persons into Northern Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom, from Eire, which is a neutral State, is within the province of this Government or the Government of Northern Ireland?

Sir J. Anderson: Matters of internal security are primarily the responsibility of the Government of Northern Ireland. There are responsibilities with regard to the control of entry into the United Kingdom which are the responsibilities of the Government of the United Kingdom. In all these matters I have been in the closest consultation with the Government of Northern Ireland, and I am not aware of any step that has been left undone which, in the view of the Government of Northern Ireland, it was desirable to take in the interests of internal security.

Mr. Logan: Do I take it that in any case the danger in Northern Ireland is that there would be an opportunity for both parties to cross the border?

Mr. Cocks: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on a number of country roads you can stroll across from Eire to Northern Ireland?

Sir J. Anderson: As I have said, the control of the frontier presents special difficulties, and the Government of Northern Ireland have been giving close attention to the matter.

Mr. Lipson: Do the identity cards include a photograph of the person?

Sir J. Anderson: I cannot say, and really I do not think it would be proper for me to pursue the matter, which is within the sphere of the Government of Northern Ireland.

Mr. Buchanan: Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that the present is an opportune time to make an approach to abolish the border altogether?

MOTOR-COACH TOURS, HORSE RACING AND HUNTING.

Captain Vyvyan Adams: asked the Home Secretary whether he will take steps to avoid the squandering of war resources by prohibiting, during the present emergency, motor-coach tours, horse racing and hunting?

Sir J. Anderson: The use of petrol for motor-coach tours is already subject to control; and so long as the national situation is not held to require the restriction of private motoring to cases of urgent necessity there would, in the view of the Government, be no justification for further restricting motor-coach facilities, which are largely used by people without private cars. As regards horse racing, the Stewards of the Jockey Club have already decided, after consultation with me, to arrange that all horse racing meetings shall be cancelled until further notice. As regards hunting, no practical question will arise until September.

Captain Adams: As it is at least possible that when the hunting season begins we may need petroleum for war purposes—

Hon. Members: Order!

Captain Adams: On a point of Order. Will you, Mr. Speaker, explain to me why my Supplementary Question is out of Order?

Mr. Speaker: I thought the hon. Member was dealing with something too much in the future.

Captain Adams: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will bear in mind that when the hunting season begins hostilities may be still proceeding?

Sir J. Anderson: We will bear that in mind.

TRAVEL FACILITIES (GREAT BRITAIN-NORTHERN IRELAND).

Dr. Little: asked the Home Secretary whether, in view of the serious inconvenience caused by the restrictions imposed on travel between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, he will so modify these restrictions that people well affected to the State who can give a satisfactory reason for their travelling, and members of His Majesty's Forces on leave, will have all unnecessary hindrances removed to their journeying in either direction?

Sir J. Anderson: I regret the inconvenience caused to the public by the restrictions which it has been necessary to impose on travel between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but it is imperative that, during the present emergency, all forms of unnecessary travel shall be reduced as far as possible. No hindrances are placed in the way of persons who satisfy the permit authorities in Great Britain or Northern Ireland that it is necessary for them to travel in either direction on business of national importance, but it would not be in the public interest to allow unrestricted travel facilities between Great Britain and Northern Ireland for private reasons. The restrictions do not apply to members of His Majesty's Forces.

Mr. Hicks: In the case of men from Northern Ireland who have come over here to work in the building industry and have not been able to get back home for nine months, will they be justified in making an application to enable them to return to their families?

Sir J. Anderson: Certainly, Sir. Special consideration will be given to people who wish to return home.

Dr. Little: While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for his reply, I am anxious that my right hon. Friend will make it as easy as possible for students in this country to get back to their homes for a holiday and return to their studies.

Sir J. Anderson: I am afraid that in the enforcement of general regulations of this kind it is impossible to avoid cases of hardship, but I can assure the hon. Member that every effort is being made to reduce cases of hardship as far as possible.

NURSES.

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Minister of Health whether he is aware that, in connection with the appeal for all trained nurses, assistant nurses and auxiliary nurses who are not already working in hospitals, made by the Ministry of Information, many willing applicants have been unable to have their services utilised; and what steps he is taking to utilise their services?

The Minister of Health (Mr. Malcolm MacDonald): The appeal to which my hon. Friend refers was for women prepared to register for whole-time service


in any casualty hospital to which they might be sent—that is, for mobile whole-time nurses. Applications from such women are being rapidly dealt with, and the accepted applicants posted to hospitals where their services are required. Women prepared to serve only in their own localities necessarily have to wait until work is available for them in those localities. If they were willing to transfer to whole-time service wherever required, their services could be utilised.

Mr. De la Bère: Does not the Minister realise that what is wanted is a central department to sort out these cases so as to regulate the supply and the demand?

Mr. MacDonald: That is exactly the machinery which we are now setting up.

Mr. De la Bère: Could the Minister expedite it a little more?

Mr. MacDonald: We are doing it as rapidly as possible.

IDENTITY CARDS.

Mr. Ralph Etherton: asked the Minister of Health what is the result of his discussions with the Secretary of State for the Home Department in regard to extending the particulars on National Registration identity cards?

Mr. M. MacDonald: Agreement has been reached as regards the proposals referred to by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary in reply to my hon. Friend's previous Question on this subject, and steps are being taken which will secure the object he has in view.

ARMS.

Mr. Cocks: asked the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the modern military theory that the effective reply to totalitarian war is a people-in-arms, he will take steps, as and when the requisite weapons become available, to arm the whole adult population of the country; and whether, in pursuance of this policy, he will, in the meantime, order the manufacture of hand grenades, which can be quickly produced, on the largest scale and organise a system of training the population in their use?

The Financial Secretary to the War Office (Mr. Richard Law): My hon. Friend can be assured that His Majesty's

Government will not neglect any measures which can properly and advantageously be taken to secure the defence of this country and its inhabitants.

Mr. Cocks: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if you want people to stay in their homes and not to go into the roads, you must give them arms? If the War Office will not do that, will they consider arming all ex-Service men?

Mr. Law: I would remind my hon. Friend that the Local Defence Volunteers exist and that any man between 17 and 65 can join. That should meet the point.

BRITISH UNION OF FASCISTS.

Mr. Silkin: asked the Home Secretary whether he is aware that the headquarters of the British Union of Fascists in Great Smith Street, Westminster, has re-opened, and that the organisation is being kept alive by volunteers; and whether he proposes to take action in the matter?

Sir J. Anderson: The position is being carefully watched with a view to such action as may be appropriate, but it would be better that I should not indicate in advance the steps which it may be my duty to take.

Sir Henry Morris-Jones: In view of the Questions which I asked before, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will not now declare the organisation an illegal organisation?

Sir J. Anderson: The Question on the Paper relates to one particular organisation, and I would like to have notice of the general question.

Mr. Thorne: In this emergency ought not the right hon. Gentleman to close this organisation down at once?

FRENCH CITIZENS.

Mr. Keeling: asked the Home Secretary whether all restrictions on the employment of French citizens for civil defence have now been removed?

Sir J. Anderson: Yes, Sir.

PART-TIME A.R.P. WORKERS.

Mr. Sorensen: asked the Home Secretary whether he will arrange that, when part-time air-raid precautions


workers have to lose part of their working day when called on duty, they should receive an allowance equivalent to their trade union rate of pay for that period and should be able to report to a point near their place of work in the event of an air-raid warning being given during their normal employment away from their homes?

Sir J. Anderson: If the advice of the Department is followed, part-time volunteers who are in employment will be called up only in conformity with arrangements agreed upon in advance between their employers and the local authority. In a high proportion of cases it may be hoped that no loss of wages will be involved, but where there is such loss the authority has power to make it good up to a maximum of 10s. a day for a man and 7s. for a woman. Local authorities fully realise the importance of arranging that volunteers should report for duty at points as near as possible to their normal residence or place of work.

Mr. Sorensen: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that though the maximum of 10s. can be paid, that still falls far short of the daily pay which many workers receive, and in view of the loss which that involves, will he direct that larger amounts may be paid in certain circumstances?

Sir J. Anderson: I think it would be very difficult to authorise the payment of rates exceeding those normally paid for full time Civil Defence Service.

Oral Answers to Questions — ADMIRALTY EMPLOYÉ (SENTENCE.)

Mr. Radford: asked the Home Secretary whether his attention has been drawn to the case of an employé at an Admiralty chart depôt, in whose motorcycling coat were flying charts on which were written a list of towns with aerodromes; who also was in possession of a revolver and holster and a German cap; and was last week sentenced at Grimsby to three months' imprisonment; and whether adequate steps will be taken to prevent this individual, after he has served his sentence, from continuing his activities?

Sir J. Anderson: Certain further inquiries are being made in this case, and when these have been completed I will

give further consideration to the suggestion put forward in my hon. Friend's Question.

Mr. Radford: Would it not be possible to take action against this traitor under the Treachery Act? Throughout the country there is the gravest indignation about the cases in which utterly inadequate sentences are imposed?

Sir J. Anderson: It does not rest with me to determine what procedure is to be followed in setting the criminal law in motion. I am not in the ordinary course, referred to in these matters at all. The Home Secretary is not the prosecuting authority.

Mr. Radford: Who is the authority?

Sir J. Anderson: All prosecutions under the criminal law in this country are carried out under the general supervision and direction of the Law Officers of the Crown.

Captain Alan Graham: Surely national security demands further steps?

Sir J. Anderson: That is a separate matter. A case of this kind would not ordinarily come to my notice at all until it is brought before the courts and once it is brought before the courts it is not proper for me to intervene.

Mr. Levy: Was this particular case brought before the Law Officers of the Crown, or went through the ordinary administration without their knowledge?

Sir J. Anderson: That may well be, but I do not think the question arises out of the Question on the Paper.

Mr. Garro Jones: Does not the Minister recognise that all these formal considerations, which have applied for so long, must now be waived?

Sir J. Anderson: No one is more alive than I am to the requirements of national security, but that is no reason why I should take upon myself functions belonging to other Departments.

Vice-Admiral Taylor: Could not this man come under the category of being a spy?

Oral Answers to Questions — CAMPS.

Mr. Mander: asked the Minister of Health whether he will consider the advisability of arranging for a further grant to be made to the National Camps


Corporation, Limited, for the erection of additional camps, in view of the fact that the original £1,000,000 has now all been arranged to be spent; and how many camps have now been built and are occupied?

Mr. M. MacDonald: Thirty camps have been completed, and the remaining one will be finished in a fortnight. Twenty-three of them are occupied, and all the others will be occupied as soon as the education authorities to whom they have been let have completed their arrangements. The question of extending the scheme will be borne in mind with due regard to the urgency of other national requirements.

Mr. Mander: In view of the great success of these camps and the urgent necessity for having more, could not a decision be come to at an early date?

Mr. MacDonald: It will be come to as soon as we have got the building materials for this purpose.

Oral Answers to Questions — OLD AGE PENSIONS.

Mr. Viant: asked the Minister of Health whether forms of application for supplementary pensions are yet available at post offices; and whether persons asking for such forms will be supplied also with a leaflet explaining in simple language the general effect of the Act and the Regulations?

Mr. M. MacDonald: Yes, Sir. Forms of application and explanatory leaflets were made available on 10th June at every post office at which old age pensions and widows' pensions are payable.

Mr. Parker: asked the Minister of Health why applicants for old age pensions in the Barking and East Ham districts have been unable to obtain the leaflets or forms recently advertised on the wireless when many surrounding areas have received them?

Mr. MacDonald: I am informed that owing to the demand for leaflets and application forms at certain post offices having exceeded our estimates, initial local stocks were rapidly exhausted. Further supplies, however, were immediately obtained from the local post office reserve, and I understand from my right hon.

Friend the Postmaster-General that no office was unable to comply with requests for forms and leaflets except for a period of a few hours.

Oral Answers to Questions — PLACES OF ENTERTAINMENT (RATES AND TAXES).

Mr. Denville: asked the Minister of Health whether he will consider the desirability of releasing from the payment of rates, during the period of closing, all places of entertainment which may be closed by Government order; and will be introduce legislation accordingly?

Mr. M. MacDonald: Under existing statutory provisions it would be open to the occupier of the premises to take steps to obtain a revision of his assessment if he considered the circumstances justified it. The reply to the latter part of the Question is in the negative.

Mr. Denville: asked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury whether he will consider the desirability of releasing from taxation, during the period of closing, all places of entertainment which may be closed by the Government; and will he introduce legislation accordingly?

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Crookshank): I assume that my hon. Friend has in mind the liability of the premises to which he refers to Income Tax under Schedule A. I would refer him to the provisions of Section 26 of the Finance Act, 1923, under which a right of appeal is given to the taxpayer in respect of assessments made under that Schedule.

Captain Bellenger: Is it not also the case that under the Finance Act, 1931, if there is no actual income, the liability to Schedule A tax can be discharged?

Captain Crookshank: That is another question. I referred my hon. Friend to what I thought were the relevant provisions.

Oral Answers to Questions — NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS AND GRANTS.

Mr. Dunn: asked the Minister of Pensions why the case of Rose Dannatt, 61, Frederick Street, Catcliffe, near Rotherham, and several other similar cases in the Rother Valley Parliamentary


division, have not yet been dealt with by the War Service Grants Advisory Committee and no awards made; whether he is aware that the meagre awards that are being made by the committee are causing widespread dissatisfaction among soldiers' wives and families; and whether he will take immediate steps to deal with these matters?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Pensions (Miss Wilkinson): This case has been represented to me more than once and has been carefully investigated and reviewed on each occasion. The War Service Grants Advisory Committee have, however, been unable on the ascertained facts of the case to find the circumstances are such as to justify a grant. I have reason to believe that the hon. Member is misinformed as to the facts, and as to this I am communicating fully with him.

Mr. W. H. Green: asked the Minister of Pensions under what circumstances men who responded to appeals to enlist previous to the actual outbreak of war are eligible for grants to relieve family hardship from the War Service Grants Advisory Committee?

Miss Wilkinson: A member of the Forces who joined voluntarily, and specifically for the period of the emergency or the war, is eligible for a war service grant in so far as his acceptance of such service has rendered him unable to meet his obligations and serious hardship has thereby been caused.

Oral Answers to Questions — PUBLIC HEALTH.

OSTEOPATHY.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: asked the Minister of Pensions whether he will reconsider his decision not to utilise the services of qualified and registered osteopaths in Ministry of Pensions centres and hospitals unless they are also qualified medical practitioners?

The Minister of Pensions (Sir Walter Womersley): I regret that I have nothing to add to the answer I gave the hon. Member on 4th March last.

Mr. Hall: May I ask whether the answer would have been different if the Question had been answered by the Parliamentary Secretary?

Sir W. Womersley: I can assure the hon. Member that it would not.

Mr. Hall: Do I understand from that reply that the hon. Lady has changed her mind since she sat on this side of the House?

PHYSIO-THERAPY.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: asked the Minister of Pensions what steps he has taken to make the fullest use of modern physiotherapeutic methods and apparatus to assist the injured who come under his care as a result of the war?

Sir W. Womersley: A physio-therapy department working on modern lines with up-to-date equipment is part of every Ministry hospital, with one exception where such treatment is not regarded as necessary. My medical officers are in close touch with the Consultant Adviser in Physical Medicine to the Ministry of Health and with other consulting experts in physio-therapy.

Oral Answers to Questions — NATIONAL FINANCE.

WAR LOANS.

Mr. Craik Henderson: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in connection with any new loans to be issued, he will consider the issue of a loan carrying a low rate of interest, and the right to participate in prize drawings?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Kingsley Wood): No, Sir. It is not proposed to make an issue of this kind which I consider would raise controversy and weaken the force of the National Savings Campaign.

Mr. Craik Henderson: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that the issue of such loans would appeal to a large body of the community who otherwise might not be interested in war loans?

Sir K. Wood: That might be so, but I am strongly advised that it would greatly weaken the efficacy of the National Savings Campaign.

Mr. Craik Henderson: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in connection with any new loans to be issued, or certain of them, he will provide that such loans can be surrendered at par in payment of Death Duties?

Sir K. Wood: No, Sir. I do not think that it would be desirable to attach to any new loans the condition which my hon. Friend suggests.

Mr. Craik Henderson: Will my right hon. Friend keep in mind that the effect would be to prevent forced realisation, a fall in value, and a loss to the Treasury?

Sir K. Wood: I think the answer to my hon. Friend is that the objection in principle is to the one-sidedness of the proposal. The stock would in fact be used in payment of Death Duties only when it stood below par and the Exchequer would always be the loser.

Mr. MacLaren: That would happen in any case.

Mr. R. C. Morrison: How much longer is the Treasury going to be the only Department that sticks rigidly to orthodox methods?

Sir K. Wood: That is another question.

SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIONAL EXPENDITURE (SPECIAL REPORT).

Mr. Ellis Smith: asked the Prime Minister whether he has given consideration to the Special Report from the Select Committee on National Expenditure; and whether it is intended to take action upon the report?

Mr. Attlee: I would remind my hon. Friend that the House itself considered this report on 29th May and ordered that the Co-ordinating Sub-Committee of the Select Committee should, in certain circumstances, be empowered to address memoranda to the Prime Minister for the consideration of the War Cabinet. I need hardly assure the House that any such memorandum receives the most careful and urgent attention of the Government.

Mr. Davidson: Have any steps been taken in regard to individuals who have been proved by the report to have been guilty of maladministration of finance?

Mr. Attlee: Appropriate action will be taken on the Memorandum.

Mr. Davidson: We hope so.

Oral Answers to Questions — ARMED FORCES (DUTY-FREE TOBACCO AND POSTAGE FACILITIES).

Mr. Thorne: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether wounded men

in home hospitals are now getting tobacco and cigarettes free of duty; and whether he will allow the wounded men in home hospitals to have their letters sent out from the hospitals franked?

Sir K. Wood: In my reply to the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Banfield) on 11th June, I explained the arrangements whereby certain approved organisations are able to distribute duty-free tobacco to sick and wounded members of the Forces in accredited hospitals. As regards the second part of the Question, I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Coventry (Captain Strickland) on 18th June.

Flight-Lieutenant Fleming: In view of the fact that our front is now in Britain, would it not be a wise idea to allow all these men to buy cigarettes free of duty?

Sir K. Wood: I have already pointed out that in the present position it is very difficult to draw a line in this respect, since other people engaged in Air-Raid Precautions and other services would be involved.

Flight-Lieutenant Fleming: Will my right hon. Friend explain then what can be the possible difference to-day between active service and peace service?

Oral Answers to Questions — FOOD SUPPLIES.

SCHOOL MEALS.

Mr. David Adams: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he is considering the possibility of ensuring that available supplies of foodstuffs, especialy of those rich in protective elements, shall be made available to those who are most in need of them by an extension of the system of school meals on such a scale that every child in the Kingdom shall receive a daily supply of such food, thus making malnutrition impossible and guaranteeing one of the main channels whereby victory may be assured?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food (Mr. Boothby): The question of an extension of the system of school meals is at present receiving close consideration. As regards supplies of foodstuffs for use in the preparation of


meals, a very wide range is at present available without restriction, apart from the rationed foods, and the hon. Member may rest assured that every effort will be made to ensure a maintenance of supplies.

Mr. Adams: Does not the Minister agree that malnutrition still prevails and that more serious steps ought to be taken?

Mr. Boothby: I said that the question of an extension of school meals is now under close consideration.

PIG MARKING.

Mr. Wilson: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether he will give details of the serious practical and administrative difficulties in the adoption of some other method for marking of pigs than that of ear marking?

Mr. Boothby: The object of the earmarking of pigs is to preserve their identity through the various processes to which the carcasses are subjected. No other method has been found which is not open to greater objections than that at present in force.

Sir P. Colfox: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there can be no objection to this practice except that the pig squeals much louder than any other animal and that he will squeal whether he is hurt or not?

COLD STORAGE (NORTHERN IRELAND).

Dr. Little: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, as there is cold-storage accommodation in Northern Ireland for only 1,050 tons which, under present conditions, is wholly inadequate, he will provide additional cold-storage facilities both in the interests of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

Mr. Boothby: The cold-storage accommodation in Northern Ireland will hold much more than the quantity given in the Question. It is not in the public interest to state what the true figure is. As much additional cold-storage space as possible is being constructed at the present time, and my Noble Friend's considered opinion is that it is better to construct it in Great Britain, where the reserves are needed.

MILK.

Mr. Lipson: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Food whether, in view of the fact that the proposed increase in the price of liquid milk is due largely to the cost of distribution, he will arrange for milk to continue to be sold at the existing price on a cash and carry basis?

Mr. Boothby: The increase in the price of liquid milk which comes into operation on 1st July is not due primarily to increased costs of distribution. My Noble Friend has asked the milk distributing trade to appoint a committee representative of the industry to make proposals for the reorganisation of milk distribution with the object of reducing costs, and all economies, such as that suggested, will be considered by that committee.

Mr. Rhys Davies: Will the trade unions covering workers in the milk distributing industry be represented on the committee which is to be set up?

Mr. Boothby: I would like notice of that question.

Dr. Haden Guest: Has a time limit been set to the deliberations of this committee?

Mr. Boothby: Yes, Sir.

Sir Joseph Nall: Is it not a fact that a large proportion of the cost of milk is due to charges levied by the Milk Board?

Dr. Guest: Is the committee to deliberate until 30th September?

Mr. Boothby: No, Sir. The request made by my Noble Friend is that he shall have the proposals of the committee at the earliest possible moment, but that a revision of milk charges must take place by the end of September.

Oral Answers to Questions — PROGRESS OF THE WAR (STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS).

Mr. Mander: asked the Prime Minister whether he will consider the advisability of arranging, with a view to economising time during the present crisis, that when Ministers decide to give an address to any body of Members in this House, such meetings should be made available to all Members rather than to purely sectional or party gatherings?

Mr. Attlee: I think it would be the general view that important statements on the war should continue to be made by Ministers in Parliament. I do not think that the suggestion made by my hon. Friend would necessarily secure the object he has in mind. As has been stated before, Ministers are always ready to address private committees of Members of this House, irrespective of party, on the work of their Departments.

Mr. Mander: Would it not save the time of Ministers, and be more in keeping with the present spirit of unity, if such meetings were open to Members of all parties, rather than that several sectional meetings should be held?

Mr. Attlee: The hon. Member is again asking the same question.

Oral Answers to Questions — HOME DEFENCE.

Mr. Cocks: asked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied with the existing arrangements for co-ordinating the action of all civil and service authorities for purposes of Home Defence; and what authority now exists for giving immediate and co-ordinated decisions on such matters?

Mr. Attlee: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave to him on Wednesday, 12th June, in which I said that arrangements had been made which, in my opinion, would satisfactorily secure close co-ordination of Home Defence activities.

Mr. Cocks: In view of the fact that in the event of invasion the military authorities would take control, would it not be better to put the whole question now under the control of one authority, such as the War Office?

Mr. Attlee: I think not.

Oral Answers to Questions — WAR COMMUNIQUES.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: asked the Prime Minister the channel through which it is proposed to issue communiques about naval operations in the Mediterranean; and how many British authorities on the spot or here are entitled to issue any communiques about the progress of the war with Italy?

Mr. Attlee: Naval communiques are normally issued by the Admiralty, but the Commander-in-Chief, Mediterranean, has discretionary authority to make public communiques immediately. So far as the Army is concerned, the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief has been authorised to issue his own communiques. News of military operations in all other theatres of war will be issued centrally by the War Office. For air communiques the normal authority is the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, R.A.F. Middle East, but the local commanders may at their discretion publish information which they consider should be made known immediately. The South African Government issue independent communiques from Pretoria.

Oral Answers to Questions — AGRICULTURE.

CREDIT FACILITIES.

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in connection with the substantial wage increase that farmers are being called upon to pay and the Government assurance that the new prices will take account of the rise in wages and increased costs, he will take immediate steps to couple this with credit facilities to farmers at a rate not exceeding 3 per cent., through the existing bank channels, since some farmers are prevented from engaging extra men needed to deal with the increased acreage crops owing to lack of credit facilities?

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. R. S. Hudson): My predecessor and I have had an assurance from the banks that they will do all in their power to assist farmers in carrying out the food production programme, and I have no doubt that they will regard this assurance as covering the matter to which my hon. Friend refers. I also propose to instruct county war agricultural executive committees to give sympathetic consideration to applications for goods and services, under the Agricultural Requisites Assistance Scheme, from farmers whose cash resources are likely to be required for the payment of wages. Coupled with the satisfactory prices I hope to be in a position to announce shortly, these measures should be sufficient to allay any apprehensions the farming community may still entertain.

Mr. De la Bère: Does the Minister not realise that there is very strong public


feeling that some concession by banks from their charge of 5 per cent. should be made? Is he further aware that in the national interest this should be done, that the excuses put forward are neither valid nor adequate, and that the whole thing needs drastic action?

Sir P. Colfox: Can we have an assurance that the rise in wages, which we shall all be glad to see, shall not take place until the corresponding rise in selling prices makes that possible?

Mr. Hudson: As I have said, I hope to be able to announce the prices very shortly. We are going to get them settled but it will not be an easy or simple job.

Mr. Garro Jones: Is the Minister aware that the great difficulty farmers experience in their desire to raise funds is that they have no securities to deposit with the banks? Has he received any explicit assurance from the banks that they will, to some extent, having regard to the prospect of increased prices, dispense with the necessity of securities and make reasonable advances to the farmers?

Mr. Hudson: If the hon. Gentleman will read my reply, he will see that I have covered that point.

Mr. Craven-Ellis: Is the Minister in a position to take action where banks have refused to give credits to farmers who were in a position to give adequate securities?

Mr. Hudson: I have not come across such cases yet, but if the hon. Member will supply me with information, I will look into it.

PRICES.

Sir Adrian Baillie: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he is now in a position to make a statement with regard to the new prices of agricultural products fixed to meet the increased charges on farming; and whether this will include vegetables and fruit such as plums, currants and apples?

Mr. Hudson: I am afraid I am not yet in a position to add to the information given to my hon. Friend on 11th June.

Sir A. Baillie: Does the Minister realise that this question of prices is a matter of great concern to the farmers?

Mr. Hudson: Yes, Sir, I have said that several times.

Mr. De la Bère: Does the Minister appreciate that this affects Evesham very much indeed?

FERTILISERS.

Sir A. Baillie: asked the Minister of Agriculture what action he proposes to take with regard to the recommendation contained in paragraph 24 of the Sixth Report of the Select Committee on National Expenditure with regard to the need for encouraging farmers to use fertilisers produced from scientifically-treated waste material?

Mr. Hudson: I am anxious that suitable waste materials from household refuse should be utilised for fertilising purposes wherever practicable. In conjunction with the Agricultural Research Council, I am actively investigating certain processes at present in operation.

Mr. R. C. Morrison: Will the Minister bear in mind that there is a considerable amount of plant in this country available for this purpose, and that efforts have been made ever since the war began to try and get something done? Is he further aware that his Department appears to be the only Department which does not come to any decisions?

Mr. Hudson: I am aware that there are plants, but I am advised that it does not necessarily follow that their products could be used in all cases without detriment. It is most important that adequate research should be made before general consent is given for the indiscriminate use of the products from these plants.

GRASS (RAILWAY EMBANKMENTS AND ROADSIDES).

Major Sir Jocelyn Lucas: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will instruct county agricultural committees to consult with the railway and the local authorities to see that grass cut on the embankments on the roadside is not burned but is either made into hay or silage?

Mr. Hudson: Arrangements have already been made with the railway companies whereby occupiers of land will be allowed to harvest the grass on railway embankments adjoining their land. A Press notice containing this information was issued on 28th May last. The desirability of putting roadside grass verges


to productive use has been impressed on the local highway authorities, and they have been asked to consult the War Agricultural Executive Committees if necessary

MECHANICAL EXCAVATORS (LAND DRAINAGE).

Mr. Woods: asked the Minister of Agriculture whether he will consider the possibility of utilising the large number of mechanical excavators now idle at brickfields for trenching and draining land that is at present unfit for cultivation through lack of satisfactory drainage?

Mr. Hudson: I am advised that any mechanical excavators now lying idle at brickfields are of a type unsuitable in size and weight for use on the land drainage work at present being carried out with the object of increasing the productivity of agricultural land.

Mr. de Rothschild: As these instruments may be of use to the L.D.V. to make fields unsuitable for the landing of aeroplanes, will not the Minister get into touch with the Secretary of State for War in order that they may be employed for this purpose?

Mr. Hudson: Yes, Sir, the War Office are already obtaining particulars of such appliances to see how many could be made use of.

Mr. Woods: Could not consultations take place so that, at the same time, the land could be made suitable for cultivation? Cannot the two jobs be done together?

Oral Answers to Questions — SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH (ENEMY INVENTIONS).

Mr. Stokes: asked the Lord President of the Council whether he will take all necessary steps to ensure the widest possible publicity in scientific papers of all enemy inventions used against us so as to ensure that every possible opportunity is given to scientists in this country to produce counter-inventions?

The Lord President of the Council (Mr. Chamberlain): It is not considered necessary, or in the public interest, to give the publicity to enemy inventions suggested by the hon. Member. Each of the Services has its own Research Department,

and all of them maintain the closest liaison with each other, with the other Government Research Departments, and with scientists and engineers outside the Government Services. In this way the appropriate scientists of the country are already directly available for consultation on any of the problems which may arise.

Mr. Stokes: Is the Lord President of the Council aware that there is a vast field of scientific research which is not in close touch with the Departments concerned and that scientists are complaining about this? Is it really understandable to say that an invention produced by the enemy cannot be disclosed for fear of giving information to the enemy? That is a thing that scientists cannot understand.

Mr. Chamberlain: No, Sir, I did not say that. It is impossible to publish every invention which may he devised by the enemy, and if certain of them were selected, it would be pointing out to the enemy those inventions which we think are of importance.

Mr. Stokes: While appreciating what the Lord President of the Council says, surely in the case, for example, of the magnetic mine it is advisable that details should be published? The Admiralty have already refused to give any information.

Mr. Chamberlain: The hon. Member will be aware that we have already devised a counter to the magnetic mine.

Oral Answers to Questions — MINISTRY OF SUPPLY.

NON-FERROUS METAL CONTROL.

Mr. Stokes: asked the Minister of Supply the remuneration paid to the Controller of Non-Ferrous Metals?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. Harold Macmillan): No payment is made by the Ministry of Supply to the Controller of Non-Ferrous Metals. As my right hon. Friend has explained in replies which he has given to Questions by my hon. Friend on 29th May, 5th June and 12th June, an inclusive fee is paid to the British Metal Corporation for operating the Non-Ferrous Metal Control.

NORTHERN IRELAND.

Dr. Little: asked the Minister of Supply whether, as there are exceptional facilities and abundant labour in Northern Ireland to increase very considerably the production of munitions of war, he will give orders to have a war factory erected there and meantime assign much more war work to that area, in order to provide employment for those who are anxious to do their utmost to assure victory to Britain and the Allies?

Mr. Harold Macmillan: The question of placing additional orders in Northern Ireland is being pursued, and I would be grateful if my hon. Friend would repeat his Question in a fortnight's time.

SCRAP IRON.

Mr. Hammersley: asked the Minister of Supply whether he will arm the local authorities with powers to take over dumps of old iron, not in the possession of dealers or merchants, at the Ministry's fixed prices?

Mr. Harold Macmillan: Arrangements have been made for the collection of scrap metal by local authorities, and they include a scheme which has been recently launched through the rural district councils for setting up local organisations to collect in central dumps all the available scrap metal in their districts. I am happy to say that, although the scheme has only been in operation for 10 days, about 1,000 offers of co-operation have already been received. Local authorities can refer any case of difficulty to my right hon. Friend who will exercise his powers where necessary.

Mr. Hammersley: Is my hon. Friend aware that in some cases the efforts of local authorities are greatly impeded by the fact that there are private stocks which are being held up for higher prices?

Mr. Macmillan: In those cases my right hon. Friend will exercise the powers he has.

Mr. A. Edwards: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that scrap dealers are complaining that their yards are full and that they cannot dispose of their stocks?

Mr. Macmillan: That is another question.

Mr. Thorne: Will the hon. Gentleman inquire of the War Office whether those guns can be removed from Wellington Barracks?

BOTTLES.

Sir Gifford Fox: asked the Minister of Supply whether he is aware of the destruction by fire of the temporary premises of the Milton Proprietary, Limited, at Goring, and that a vast quantity of bottles used by the firm were recovered as salvage; that the Henley Rural District Council has had an opportunity of disposing of the bottles, but the firm is now burying the bottles because it is cheaper to order new bottles than to refit the old; and whether this waste can be stopped?

Mr. Harold Macmillan: I am aware of the circumstances mentioned in the first part of my hon. Friend's Question, but I am informed that the company propose to retain and re-use the whole bottles and to sell the broken bottles for scrap.

Sir G. Fox: Are not these bottles of use, and would it not be better to sell them?

Mr. Macmillan: I said in my reply that the company have agreed to reclaim and re-use the whole bottles and to sell the broken bottles for scrap.

Oral Answers to Questions — BRITISH ARMY.

PISTOLS AND REVOLVERS.

Mr. Turton: asked the Secretary of State for War the nature of his appeal to the public for pistols and revolvers that may be of use to members of His Majesty's Forces; what steps he is taking to give publicity to this appeal; and what has been the result of the appeal to date?

Mr. Law: The appeal for firearms was limited to shot guns and rifles, and there has been a good response. It is not considered that an appeal for pistols and revolvers would be likely to bring in many weapons of a character suitable for Army requirements.

Mr. Turton: Is my hon. Friend aware that a fortnight ago the Minister of Home Security said that an appeal was being made for revolvers, that a large number of revolvers were put away after the last war, and that if an appeal were made many officers and warrant officers could be provided with them?

Mr. Law: I am aware of the reply to which my hon. Friend has referred. My right hon. Friend said that action was being taken, and I assume that the action he had in mind was that it was being referred to the War Office. The result of the consideration of my Department has been indicated.

Mr. Turton: Will the Department reconsider the matter in view of the fact that many officers and warrant officers are in need of revolvers?

Mr. Garro Jones: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a list of persons holding these weapons under police permits? Have they been directly approached? If there is need for these weapons, why should they not be confiscated?

Mr. Law: The appeal has had a good response.

Mr. Garro Jones: That is not an answer to my Question. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is a list of persons holding these weapons under police permits, and have they been directly approached and requested or compelled to surrender the number needed by the War Office?

Mr. Law: No, Sir, there has been no compulsion.

Mr. Garro Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman look up that list and find out where these weapons are, and get them, if they are necessary?

Mr. Henderson Stewart: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Members of Parliament trained in the last war to use revolvers and now serving in the Volunteer Forces are refused permits to purchase ammunition for their own revolvers; and whether he will take action to remedy this?

Mr. Law: If my hon. Friend will let me have particulars, I shall be very glad to look into the matter in consultation with my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.

Mr. Cocks: Why cannot all Members of Parliament have revolvers, seeing that they will be the first persons to be shot?

Mr. Law: That is a matter for the House.

Mr. Duncan: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will commandeer

all the revolvers and automatic pistols, with their ammunition, now in the hands of the police authorities, other than those required by the police themselves, and hand them over to the Service Departments for issue to the Forces?

Mr. Law: Firearms and ammunition surrendered to the police by persons holding them without firearm certificates are, in accordance with normal practice, if not retained for police purposes, either handed over to the military authorities or destroyed. Firearms and ammunition recently taken by the police for safe custody were transferred to the military authorities, and those that are wanted for military purposes will be so used.

Mr. Duncan: Will my hon. Friend ask the police authorities not to destroy any more revolvers, so that the military authorities, who are very short of revolvers, may be enabled to have them?

Sir Herbert Williams: Will the hon. Gentleman give an assurance that people handing over old weapons for which they ought to have had a licence will not be prosecuted as a result of their honesty?

Mr. Law: That assurance has already been given.

Sir H. Williams: In these circumstances can we have an assurance that summonses already issued will be withdrawn?

Mr. Law: I will consult about that with my right hon. Friend.

LOCAL DEFENCE VOLUNTEERS.

Captain Pilkington: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will consider allowing the passive defence of aerodromes to be taken over by Local Defence Volunteers in order that recruits shall be able to get the necessary minimum amount of training?

Mr. Law: I do not think it would be advisable to make any statement on this subject.

Mr. Parker: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that local cyclist clubs have received notices inviting their members to join the Local Defence Volunteers; that, in many areas, the local police stations to which they were asked to report have received no information on the matter; and whether he will take action to deal with those responsible?

Mr. Law: If my hon. Friend will be good enough to let me have particulars of any cases he has in mind, I will have inquiries made.

Mr. Robert Morgan: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he can make any statement as to the progress of organising and equipping the Local Defence Volunteers in Sussex?

Mr. Law: The organisation and equipment of Local Defence Volunteers is proceeding satisfactorily throughout the country. I do not think it is advisable to give details as regards individual counties.

AMERICAN CITIZENS (ENLISTMENT).

Sir T. Moore: asked the Secretary of State for War the exact reasons why individual offers of service by American subjects are being refused by the British Government; and what is the objection to forming an American Legion?

Mr. Law: I am not aware of any case in which an American citizen has been refused enlistment on account of nationality. The objection to forming a foreign legion is that it is greatly to be preferred, on grounds of organisation, that all enlistments should be into existing corps.

Sir T. Moore: If I bring to my hon. Friend's attention the names of Americans who are willing to join the British Army, will he facilitate their enlistment?

CALLING-UP.

Sir T. Moore: asked the Secretary of State for War whether, taking any number of registered men, he will state the approximate percentage of those who are called up to fight, those who are called up to transact duties connected with supplies to the fighting forces, those who are in reserved occupations, those who are rejected as physically unfit, and, finally, those who are not called up on the ground that they come into the category of Army tradesmen and their services are for the time being apparently not wanted?

Mr. Assheton: I have been asked to reply. It would not be in the national interest to disclose the information asked for by my hon. and gallant Friend.

ENEMY PARACHUTE TROOPS (REPORTS).

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will take

steps to utilise the services of the county war agricultural executive committees to notify those landowners and occupiers of land of the distinctive numbers on the ordnance survey maps of the lands which they are daily working, with a view to these owners or occupiers appointing one or more men engaged on their land to report, giving the specific number on the ordnance survey maps, of any landings of Nazi paratroopers on those lands, with a view to reporting to the local military headquarters?

Mr. Law: I am advised that it will be sufficient if the locality of landings is reported by reference to a well-known landmark, and that the use of maps for this purpose is not necessary.

Mr. De la Bère: Is my hon. Friend aware that that stereotyped answer will not do? It is quite impossible to distinguish places unless some distinctive number is given. Many of the local names are quite unfamiliar to the authorities. It is a very important question, but it is treated in a stereotyped War Office manner, and that is no good.

Mr. Law: I am sorry that my hon. Friend should have that view of the answer, but the fact is that this question has been considered by the War Office, and it has seemed to my advisers that the proposal suggested would involve very great complications and would not secure the object which my hon. Friend desires.

Mr. De la Bère: Will my hon. Friend see me immediately after Questions?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Mr. Lees-Smith: May I ask the Lord Privy Seal what is to be the business for next week?

Mr. Attlee: The business for next week will be as follows:

Tuesday: Supply (14th Allotted Day); Committee. Debate on Evacuation of Children Overseas.

Wednesday: Second Reading of the Courts (Emergency Powers) Amendment Bill [Lords]; Middlesex Deeds Bill [Lords]; and Truck Bill. Committee and remaining stages of the War Charities Bill [Lords]. Second Reading of the Indian and Colonial Divorce Jurisdiction


Bill [Lords]. Motion to approve the Clearing Office (Rumania) Amendment Order.

Thursday: Supply (15th Allotted Day); Committee. Ministry of Supply Vote to be considered.

Mr. Lees-Smith: Will the Lord Privy Seal bear in mind, with reference to Thursday's business, concerning the Ministry of Supply, that after the Minister has made his statement in public a number of Members will probably wish to raise points which could not suitably be raised in public, and that at that stage there may be a desire that the House should resolve itself into Secret Session?

Mr. Attlee: I think that point is well worth consideration, and the Government will take it into consideration. If the House so desires, it can go into Secret Session.

Mr. Cocks: In view of the number of Members who want to take part in the Debate to-day, will the Lord Privy Seal consider continuing this Debate either tomorrow or on one day next week?

Mr. Attlee: I think it would be undesirable to continue this Debate tomorrow. The Debate is on the Adjournment, and if the House desired another day for the Debate, it would always be possible to indicate that. We had better see how we go to-day.

Mr. E. Smith: Will the Lord Privy Seal consider the advisability of arranging for the Ministry of Aircraft Production Vote to be considered at the same time? There is a number of issues which are inseparable, and as this Ministry has only recently been set up, it may be desirable that the two Departments should be considered together.

Mr. Attlee: Yes, I will certainly consider my hon. Friend's suggestion.

Sir H. Williams: May I ask at whose suggestion the two Supply subjects for next week were selected?

Mr. Attlee: An endeavour is made to find out what is the general wish of the House, and that is what was done on this occasion.

Mr. Cocks: On Tuesday we are to discuss the evacuation of children to other countries. I understand the Debate will take place on the Dominions Vote, but

that would confine us to considering evacuation to the Dominions. Could not the Government also bring up the Foreign Office Vote, so that we can discuss also the question of evacuation to America?

Mr. Attlee: We shall put down the appropriate Votes.

Sir H. Williams: Further to the point that I raised just now, will the Lord Privy Seal indicate what steps were taken to consult various points of opinion before the subjects for next week were selected?

Mr. Attlee: The hon. Member will recall that when this point was raised before the statement was made that if there was a general desire to discuss any subject, there should be an opportunity to do so. It is quite impossible to indicate exactly which Members were asked. An endeavour is made to find out whether there is a considerable volume of opinion in the House desiring that a certain subject shall be discussed, but it is impossible to put the matter in further detail.

Sir H. Williams: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman—

Mr. Speaker: We cannot have a discussion on this point.

Sir H. Williams: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. You ruled some considerable time ago that ex-Ministers were entitled to sit on this Bench, and in accordance with that Ruling a certain number of right hon. and hon. Members have exercised that privilege.

Mr. Davidson: We cannot help that.

Sir H. Williams: There have since been discussions as to the procedure that might be followed, quite apart from the present occupancy of this Bench. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that the usual channels, as commonly understood, must function as they normally function. Surely there must be accorded, in some appropriate way, a means of ascertaining what may be the desire of Members of all political parties. I asked my question deliberately. I am not seeking any special privilege for myself. Despite efforts made by others to deprive Members of Parliament of their rights in this matter, I am speaking, I know, on behalf of a very large number of Members who wish to have it clearly established that there should be some procedure, giving to what represents,


after all, not a minority of this House, but a majority, the opportunity of exercising this privilege.

Sir Percy Harris: Is it not a fact that any hon. or right hon. Member can make suggestions to the Government if he so desires, and is it not also a fact that the Government are ready to receive suggestions of any sort from wheresoever they come?

Mr. Maxton: I would like to say a word on this matter. I would like to know whether, in choosing these Supply days, there is complete harmony in the Whips' room about it. It seems to me that there is surely something wrong in the Government Whips' department, if there is agreement in the Whips' room, and then, locally expressed disagreement in the House. Is it now the settled view of this House, as expressed by the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris), that Supply days are chosen by the Government? An essential part of the Constitution has been that Supply days were chosen by others than the Government. I would ask the Lord Privy Seal, further, whether the Prime Minister did not promise the House of Commons that, having regard to the new situation, and the impossibility of getting an official Opposition in the ordinary and accepted sense of the term, a new procedure would be developed by which the wishes of back benchers who were not in the Government—

Mr. Speaker: I understood that the hon. Gentleman was putting a point of Order to me, but I am getting rather confused with it.

Mr. Maxton: I was not putting a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, but was putting certain questions to the Leader of the House. Was not a promise given by—

Mr. Speaker: A point of Order was put to me by the hon. Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams), and my reply to him is that, at this time of acute crisis through which the country is passing, an attempt is being made to have a united House of Commons. It is difficult, in a House of 615 Members, to have complete agreement, as there are sure to be some Members who are dissatisfied. I am afraid that will always be so. But, as far as possible, we must try to avoid party differences. As regards the subjects to be discussed in Supply, every effort

will be made to ascertain the wishes of the House, as a whole, and not of parties in particular.

Mr. Maxton: Why not suspend the Constitution?

Colonel Wedgwood: May I ask a supplementary question on business? I understand that on Tuesday we are to discuss the evacuation of children upon the Dominion Vote. Many of us want to discuss emigration to America. When we had a Debate upon evacuation, discussion of most of the Dominions was ruled out of order because they could not be debated under the Votes which were on the Paper. I want to be certain that, on Tuesday next, questions which are appropriate to the Foreign Office will not be excluded from the Debate because it is a Dominions Vote which is being discussed. I want to be certain that we may deal with the whole question.

Mr. Attlee: Evidently the right hon. and gallant Gentleman did not hear the question which was asked me by another hon. Member. I replied that we shall endeavour to put down the Votes which will give the greatest range possible.

Sir William Davison: Would it not be possible in future that these unseemly wrangles about procedure, which are suitable in peace-time but not in war-time, should be conducted by the House in private Session, so that it should not be made the laughing stock of the world?

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS.

Captain Vyvyan Adams: May I ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker, upon a certain matter? From the place where I am stationed at present I sent three Questions the other day, two of which were accepted by you, and the third was rejected. I should like to be informed, if you will, on what grounds the third was rejected?

Mr. Speaker: The hon. and gallant Member will readily understand that I could not enter into discussion of the grounds of rejecting a Question of an hon. Member.

Captain Adams: May I make a point of personal explanation? I was very surprised to have your objection to this Question, which I thought was fully in order, and it was only on this ground that I asked your guidance.

BILL PRESENTED.

TRUCK BILL,

"to restrain legal proceedings under the Truck Acts, 1831 to 1896, in respect of certain transactions heretofore effected which might lawfully have been effected in another form, and to remove doubts as to whether persons employed under contracts rendered illegal by those Acts are or were to be regarded for purposes other than those of the said Acts as employed under contracts of service," presented by Sir John Anderson; supported by the Attorney-General, the Lord Advocate and Mr. Peake; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 63.]

ADJOURNMENT.

Resolved,
That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn till Tuesday next."—[Mr. Attlee.]

INDIAN AND COLONIAL DIVORCE JURISDICTION BILL [Lords].

Read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 64.]

BILLS REPORTED.

THE MONMOUTHSHIRE AND SOUTH WALES EMPLOYERS' MUTUAL INDEMNITY SOCIETY LIMITED BILL [Lords].

Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills (with Report on the Bill).

Bill, as amended, and Report to lie upon the Table; Report to be printed.

GOSPORT WATER BILL [Lords].

Reported, with Amendments, from the Committee on Unopposed Bills (with Report on the Bill).

Bill, as amended, and Report to lie upon the Table; Report to be printed.

ORDER OF THE DAY.

SUPPLY.

[13TH ALLOTTED DAY.]

Considered in Committee.

[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

ARMY ESTIMATES, 1940.

WAR OFFICE.

Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £100, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Expense of the War Office, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1941.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and agreed to.—[Captain Margesson.]

Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Tuesday next.

SECRET SESSION.

3.59 P.m.

The Lord Privy Seal (Mr. Attlee): Mr. Speaker, I beg to call your attention to the fact that strangers are present.

Mr. Speaker: The Question is, "That strangers be ordered to withdraw."

Question put, and agreed to.

Strangers withdrew accordingly.

[The remainder of the Sitting was in Secret Session.]

The following report of the proceedings of the Secret Session was issued under the authority of Mr. SPEAKER:

The Adjournment of the House was moved, and a Debate took place on Home Defence and other matters.